T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip - EFILive These cookies manage your cookie and privacy preferences. Aaron is probably now the best informed person in the world regarding the history of automatic transmission development, I appreciate the compliment, but Im really not! I agree that a manual transmission option would be great. The combination of a smaller-diameter and lighter converter means that less engine torque is required for acceleration. It's not more specific because stall speed is highly dependent upon engine torque. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. Tire slip is likely causing your speed difference. Actual shows 640 rpm in drive with the brake on. Really bad shuddering under acceleration, etc. What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:22 am, You need to be a member in order to post a reply, Not a member? The good news is, if it is just your torque converter that is having issues since it's a self-contained unit, you may not need to replace or rebuild your whole transmission. (If you need to review or change these settings after you accept, you can do so from the Privacy Tools page.) With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. To serve up a little enlightenment, let's take a spin through the torque-converter world and make some sense out of all the superstition. I believe that the drive train motion could be perceived as a "shudder" especially under high torque/high load conditions. In Drive, the direct clutch is engaged and both bands are released, causing the input sun gear, the low sun gear (orange), the planet carrier and output shaft (light green) to turn at input shaft speed. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. First, that slip wastes some fuel youre paying for more engine revolutions (and more power) than reach the driveshaft. When you coast in gear, the transmission attempts to drive the engine crankshaft, whose inertia causes a braking effect. With the torque slip PID on the DashDAQ. My SunCoast converter has a little slip. This is not a huge factor in the overall lower-e.t. Less than 15rpm is normal and more than that will cause shudder. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. Manage Preferences - With a manual transmission, you are allowed the freedom to pick the starting-line rpm you want to apply when you dump the clutch. This is due in part to the technological advances in torque converters. Last fall, the external filter disintegrated and clogged up the cooler. A manufacturer's torque-converter rating is generally expressed as an rpm range. Your car's automatic transmission has a torque converter. The stator redirects fluid from the turbine to the impeller, radically increasing the force of the fluid entering the impeller and multiplying the torque input from the engine. In third gear, the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DGs lockup clutch drives the transmissions output shaft at engine speed, providing a completely mechanical direct drive with no hydraulic slippage. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. Many times, people think there is something wrong with their transmission when the problem lies with their torque converter. It's all about creating an overall tuned package that complements the rest of your car. The information below will outline the most common torque converter issues and their solutions. The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. The wp-donottrack_feed cookie, which controls a blog feed, was set by accessing the dashboard menu for the WP DoNotTrack plugin (which we do not currently use on this website); this cookie normally expires in about one year. The slipping occurs while you're driving or changing gears, and it usually comes with some odd noises too. The issues of slippage and heat are the main reasons that street converters should be approached with a serious amount of compromise when it comes to stall speed. The logic of these schematics, which are not to scale and which have been greatly simplified for clarity, is that each color represents a set of components that are integral or otherwise connected so that they always rotate together; clutches, brake bands, planet pinions, and flywheels are shown in black or gray. The speed difference between impeller and turbine is simply lost to heat within the operating fluid. We were wrong. In this diagram, the yellow arrows show the power flow in second gear. (author diagram). Your car will vibrate even when youre not going very fast. The clutch plate itself, which was faced on both sides with cork, was splined at its hub to the transmission input shaft. This is most noticeable from about 1200-1800 rpm. It ran pretty good. I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. check trans fluid. Unsurprisingly, each engagement or disengagement of the lockup clutch felt like a shift, giving less technically knowledgeable drivers the mistaken impression that Ultramatic was a two-speed automatic. 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Once engaged, the lockup clutch simply drove the output shaft at engine speed (not turbine speed). All other trademarks and/or service marks are the property of their respective owners. So when the torque converter clutch engages there should be almost 0rpm difference between tc slip desired and tc slip act. The mount on the transmission side (under the battery) was severely damaged, the rubber legs inside the bushing were torn through and was allowing a lot of engine movement. But this shuttering is not caused by a disease. Wallace Racing BACK to Auto Math. U.S. Pat. (We have now DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website; see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy for more information.) (not Diameter) (At present, this setting does NOT affect the payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the site's administrative dashboard, nor does hiding the box affect any cookies that may have already been set). About Us - At idle and very low road speeds, slippage is desirable because it keeps the engine from stalling or lugging in gear. Comments may be moderated. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. I am however, now chasing some unusual engine noises which are a different issue entirely. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I checked for codes and had none that explained why it happened. works great no real problems. The reason for increasing stall speed is directly related to the engine's torque curve. Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, Re: Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.co 733.0.html. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. Ate Up With Motor and its embedded content providers may use cookies and/or similar technologies and collect personal information about site visitors as described in the Privacy Policy and Cookie Notice. Plugging it back in all the way and resetting the PCM took care of that problem. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). The turbine and lockup clutch driven plate are both splined to the transmission input shaft (medium blue). The only problem - there's a boat-load of information and I only know how to interpret a fraction of it. I've got reason to believe my torque converter is going out, which readings can I look at to determine if that's actually my problem? If the engine isnt free to turn faster than the driveshaft at rest or extremely low speeds, the engine will stall! Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b42f522a79 The stock converter wouldn't with a big tune unless I was cruising at light throttle. The multiplication factor is based on the speed difference between the turbine and impeller. Torque converter slip question I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. This very similar to what I experienced with my failure. During a shudder the desired will stay close to 0rpm but the act pid will go up and down in rpm. This is a remarkably broad, convoluted, and idiosyncratic field and theres a LOT I dont know. A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. Unfortunately, additional stall speed also increases the slippage in the converter. Cookies whose names begin with "_ceg" are associated with the Crazy Egg web analytics service (which is subject to the Crazy Egg Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy). Well, I thought I did explain that in my reply post. Ultramatics lockup clutch was a hydraulically operated wet clutch located within the torque converter housing, between the engine flywheel and the converter turbine. How much torque converter slip is OK? | Chevy Nova Forum Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. These cookies are necessary for the site's administrative users (who wouldn't even be able to log in without them), but if you are not an administrative user, these cookies aren't normally placed on your device at all unless you somehow access the login area, which is off-limits to non-administrators. another masterpiece. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. The usual strategy is to disengage the clutch at idle (or just off idle) and during acceleration and then then engage the clutch for cruising. A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). This sounds really great, and it is. I just checked it yesterday and it was right at the full indicator with the transmission properly warmed up. 2. Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. A lot of bad things can happen to your car when the torque converter starts failing. This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). This creates the greatest speed difference between the turbine and the impeller and therefore the maximum torque multiplication. This means that at a 2:1 torque multiplication ratio, an engine that is making 300 lb-ft of torque at a stall speed of 2,500 rpm will actually apply 600 lb-ft of torque to the input shaft of the transmission as the car leaves the starting line. The torque converter of the future will have a carefully tuned control strategy, which takes into account the torque demands of each vehicle. 5r110 torque slip | Ford Power Stroke Nation The cookies are not set at all unless you select that option when submitting a comment. Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. If the fluid becomes contaminated, anything that uses and relies on the fluid can be damaged. Do you want them slipping when driving? After logging in, the wp-settings-UID cookies store the logged-in user's configuration settings, while the wp-settings-time-UID cookies record the time those configuration settings were last set; again, there may be multiple iterations of each of these cookies, which normally expire after about one year. T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. Anyway, I downloaded FORscan on my laptop and loaded several pids for the transmission. The wahFontColor and wahBgColor cookies, which are set if you alter the site's color scheme, normally expire after about 14 days, but you can remove them immediately by clicking the "Restore Defaults" button on the sidebar. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. scheme, but it does contribute. I have yet to read this monumental work in depth. This overran the rear unit planet carrier, unlocking the rear sun gears one-way clutch and putting the transmission in direct drive. Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. There was also a kickdown mechanism that allowed the driver to disengage the clutch at road speeds between 13 and 56 mph (21 and 90 km/h) by flooring the accelerator, allowing the torque converter to again multiply torque. i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. Filling the cylinder with pressurized oil would lock the pressure plate to the clutch plate itself, forcing the clutch and input shaft to rotate with the torus cover at engine speed. As you can see I was experiencing multiple issues, all of which were exacerbating the clutch slippage and/or shuddering issue. You are using an out of date browser. How ever this did happen right after I did the six 0 to 60 mph relearn runs. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. For one, the engine would stall every time the vehicle came to a halt with the lockup clutch engaged unless the driver shifted to neutral each time. What to Do to Fix Overheating and Seal Damage. There are many different types oftorque converter problems. JavaScript is disabled. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. :whs: I was seeing 200-300 on the 310 with the stock converter but still felt really strong! The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. I had just bought an SCT with Gearhead tunes. Some iterations of the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DG started in first gear, but early transmissions started in second unless the driver manually selected Low. Adding stall speed to the torque converter increases the power available to accelerate the car more quickly. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. For all the administrative and login cookies described here, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash while "UID" will be the administrative user's user ID number in this website's WordPress database. (At this point, an updated, expanded edition wouldnt go amiss, given all the subsequent development in CVTs and automatics with five or more speeds.). Introduced for the 1950 model year, Studebakers Automatic Drive was developed in partnership with Borg-Warner and was more broadly known as the DG series, after the Borg-Warner Detroit Gear Division that did much of the development work. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Your Transmission Fluid is Contaminated. A converter that might have a stall speed of 5,000 rpm for a pure drag car would be completely miserable on the street. When I replaced my transmission and converter, I replaced two mounts and the two dog bones under the engine. Logging in sets the wordpress_logged_in_xx, wordpress_sec_xx, and/or wordpress_xx cookies, which store the user's login credentials to allow access to the administrative dashboard and other administrative functions; there may be multiple iterations of each cookie. iThemes is one of the Liquid Web family of brands; iThemes and Liquid Web are trademarks of Liquid Web, LLC.). One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. Required fields are marked *. Torque converter slip question - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums Sep 16, 2013 #11 4 Cookies whose names begin with "optimizely" are associated with the Optimizely digital experience platform (which is subject to the Optimizely Privacy Policy; the "Privacy" section of the Optimizely Trust Center provides additional information about Optimizely privacy practices, including a link to the Data Processing Agreement that applies to personal data the Optimizely services process on customers' behalf that may be subject to certain regional privacy and/or data protection laws, while their "Cookies and localStorage in the Optimizely snippet" help page provides additional technical information about the cookies and/or similar technologies used by that platform). The annulus (purple) is held in reverse, idles in low, and rotates with the sun gears in direct drive. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. The stator is called the middleman because it serves as the conduit that reverses transmission fluid and sends it back to a turbine impeller. Contact Us - It stays between 0 and 5 RPM when locked. I drove only sticks for years by choice. by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:54 pm, Post In this design, the two basic components in the fluid coupling are the impeller blades (the drive side), which are connected to the engine, and the turbine blades (the driven member), which are splined to the input shaft of the transmission. Ive been troubleshooting a low RPM with light acceleration shudder on my 2011 EcoBoost Flex. In a car with a good suspension and sticky tires, you can use extra rpm to put the engine closer to its torque peak, launching the car even more quickly. Have you ever gotten in your car, started it up, put it in gear only to feel it shudder? Your torque converter is full of fluid, and its jobis to act as a hydraulic pump and acts as a coupling between the engine and the transmission. The wire chaffing is a definite possibility. The result will be every car will have efficient, smooth, and comfortable rides. The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. Click to reveal I think you probably have some time as long as you dont pound on it. A malfunctioning torque converter can have a shudder that comes from the transmission. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Not all the listed cookies and/or data items are necessarily set in all instances, and there may sometimes be others not listed above, particularly if you are logged into a Google account. To learn more about what information the Vimeo platform collects and how that information may be used, see the Vimeo Privacy Policy. Third, make sure that your engine is running right because a transmission chuggle can be caused by many things. Your IP: The DG series transmissions were notionally three-speed automatics (although early iterations were designed to start in second gear) with a torque converter lockup clutch. If you use the buttons to make a payment or donation, the PayPal services will set additional cookies (not listed here) to manage your PayPal login and transaction data (and potentially also for various other purposes, e.g., user analytics and/or advertising). A reverse band surrounds a brake drum connected to the front carrier, which is also integral with the rear annulus (orange). Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. Theglobal torque converter marketcontinues to grow and expand at a CAGR of 4.54%, which is projected until 2021. However, the cookie may remain on your device for as long as the settings of your browser (or other user agent) permit. *. I was towing my 5th wheel and the temp went up to 285. In this schematic of a basic three-element torque converter with lockup clutch, the torus cover, lockup clutch pressure plate, and impeller (red) all rotate with the engine flywheel. It took the addition of a small device called the stator to increase the efficiency of the fluid coupling and transform it into a torque converter. You can hide the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box and prevent the loading of its embedded content by going to the "Consent Management" tab and switching the "Allow PayPal Button" toggle to "OFF." register to join our community However, that clutch was used in a distinctly different way than was Packards. So far the bogging down hasn't happened since last week. Each PayPal payment or donation button may also incorporate a tracking pixel called "pixel.gif" (which loads from paypalobjects.com). Big cars weighing over 3,300 pounds generally need a converter with more torque multiplication. The one for torque slip desired is 1020 rpm. That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. If you correctly enter the password, the site saves this cookie on your device to allow you access to the password-protected post or page. The trans temp was never above 160 degrees. Cookie Policy - abs thank you for posting your experience here. Privacy Statement - * Various services, specials, or coupon offers are available at participating locations only. Performance & security by Cloudflare. He wondered if something internal may be damaged and the tow tune showed it up not allowing the torque converter to unlock soon enough which caused the bog down issue.
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